What kind of conversation costs you something?

Pick a close friend. Hold them in mind. Ok. Which of these two conversations would you most like to engage in with this person?

1. A conversation about what’s been happening since you last met.
2. A conversation about how they are really, really feeling about what’s been happening since you last met.

For some people I know (and my partner, Leonie for sure!), I am guessing that because you were thinking of a close friend, you picked #2 – saying something like: “Oh I would always choose a deep and meaningful conversation, that will be much more interesting, I want to be part of that!”

If you opted for #1, you may have been thinking: “Oh they never like to go there”, or “I don’t want to pry”, or “I’d probably start with an update, then see where that goes”, or maybe even, “Neither of us has time for a D&M.”

Of course, I am not saying either choice is wrong. Doubtless with some good listening and questioning skills – and a mutual willingness to engage – either conversation could reach similar depths (or highs) if desired.

But conversations of type #2 are fundamentally different from type #1. I will borrow from Michael Verde’s (of Memory Bridge), classification of meaningful conversations and suggest that conversation #1 is mostly about what we are doing in our lives to get through, or how we are living our lives (Verde’s levels 1,2,3). It’s likely going to be safer, quicker, uncomplicated, predicable, non-threatening. Arguably easier on both parties. Such conversations are important, and clearly better than social isolation, but I think most people would agree that something is missing from such engagements.

On the other hand, conversation #2 seeks to understand why we are doing what we are doing and what it means for us and those close to us. It’s about how we are making sense of what is happening to us (Verde’s levels 5,6,7). These conversations are bound to go deep, be vulnerable, unpredictable, open-ended, emotional, maybe even messy.

I want to say, “A conversation like this costs you something” (shamelessly paraphrasing from the Robbie Williams biopic, Better Man, in which Guy Chambers, Robbie’s writing partner, says “A song only works if it costs you something”).

Suffice to say, #2s are about choices and consequences and happiness and love and pain and fears and mistakes and experience. They can be heartwarming and joyous and fiery and uncomfortable.

But, we need to have them.

While we may avoid them, or never get to them, such conversations are about our humanness, our “take” on the world and our place in it.

In our work in aged care using image cards to try to improve the quality and frequency of interactions between elders and their carers, it is common to hear something like: people in aged care need to be seen, to be heard, and to be valued. There is a lot of talk about how to personalise interactions and experiences to make seen-heard-valued the focus of caring for older Australians. It’s important, because this kind of meaningful socialisation quite literally keeps people healthier for longer.

Unfortunately, however, the talk is often more about how difficult it seems to be to fit this socialisation into a person’s care and how easily it is sidelined. There appears to be many aged care industry systemic reasons for this (which I won’t explore here), but these aside, it is also because to be really seen, heard and valued, you need to have some #2s – you need to truly connect with other humans at these deeper levels. But, as we have discussed, a lot of us find this difficult at the best of times – let alone in a setting such as residential aged care home.

I am a little embarrassed to say that I have been so engrossed in this aged care work, that it was only very recently that I tweaked to the obvious fact that being seen-heard-valued is not just something we need when we get old. It is of course what we all want and need. At any age. All of our lives.

I will be 62 this year. I am healthy enough and would say that I have lived pretty well. In recent times though, with both my parents passed, our kidult children off and about, and with less years in front than behind, a sense of true empty-nesting, accompanied by a reflective perspective has started to set in. I am reminded of the psychologist Erik Erikson’s life stages of growth which I learnt about decades ago in my education training. The final stage, known as Integrity vs despair, has always fascinated me, and I have often wondered when I would feel I had reached it, and which way I would lean. As many readers will recall, this stage is when people (over 65 years) look back over their lives and feel either fulfilment or regret. If you are proud of what you have achieved, you experience satisfaction and fulfilment. If you are not, well … you feel less so. Rest assured I am pretty proud of my life achievements, and anyway, I still have three years!

My reason for raising this though, is that I now realise that over my life I have allowed a good deal of my conversations and interactions with other people (family included) to stay at #1. I am certain many moments of meaningful connection have been missed – for me and for them. I suspect that some readers, particularly men of my age, would share similar feelings (and their partners are likely also nodding). And that’s a possible source of regret that I want to work on.

People who know me would know that I am always keen to go intellectual, philosophical and existential, on all kinds of topics. But I have realised that even these conversations, while sometimes described as deep and meaningful, don’t have to cross to #2. You can talk about these things at length without crossing over to personal D&Ms.

I am pleased to say that in recent times Leonie and I have been having a lot of #2s. Even after more than 30 years together there is still a strong desire to be seen, heard and valued at the deepest, barest, level. These conversations (sometimes CCS Cards assisted!) can sometimes be raw, unpredictable, time-consuming, challenging. But when we have created and held the space together, such conversations can be wonderfully meaningful, fulfilling and future-focused. It is in these moments that real growth can happen, and I definitely want to be part of that!  

So, more and more, when I “catch up” with friends and family, I am going to make a point of moving from what we are doing, to why we are doing what we are doing. Look out my two close friends!

As a side note: When I use CCS Cards to open sessions, even with work colleagues or people meeting for the first time, it is uncannily common for conversation to go deeper than would be usual in such an icebreaker activity. Perhaps the images help us tap into that humanness we all desire to connect with – which has got to be a good thing.

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